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   ► MB LobbyAmerican I.T. Workforce BoardH-1B Discussion Topic   Print This     

H-1B Discussion

H-1B Discussion in H-1B Discussion topic (part of our American I.T. Workforce group).

Quick Search: Discussion   H 1B   H 1B Discussion  
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Mike Prestwood
Prestwood IT
Prestwood IT office in Citrus Heights, CA
The controversial
Old UBB Archived Link: [URL=http://www.prestwood.com/community/reference/H1-B_KB_Article.html]H1-B visa program[/URL]
was increased by lobbying groups such as TechNet several years ago. An H1-B visa allows a foreign worker to temporarily take a position in the United States away from a U.S. citizen.

Does the shortage of talent still exist?
Is it time to abolish H1-B visas?
If not, is it time to lower the available H1-B visas to pre-1998 levels?


Old UBB Archived Link: [URL=http://www.prestwood.com/community/reference/H1-B_KB_Article.html]Read Full Article[/URL]

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 Posted 17 years ago (Thread Starter)
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Post ID #6830, 41 replies
Thread Started 6/27/2002 11:21:00 AM
View Counter=15429
Last Reply Posted 12/6/2018 3:10:15 AM)
Location=Prestwood IT office in Citrus Heights, CA 
Joined=19 years ago   MB Posts=1410   KB Posts=1805   KB Comments=75   BLOG, Topics=4  
Moderator
Mike Prestwood
Prestwood IT
Prestwood IT office in Citrus Heights, CA
The IT industry has been hit really hard. I know alot of out of work and under worked programmers right now.

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 Posted 17 years ago (Thread Starter)
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About Mike Prestwood

Mike Prestwood is a drummer, an author, and creator of the PrestwoodBoards online community. He is the President & CEO of Prestwood IT Solutions. Prestwood IT provides Coding, Website, and Computer Tech services. Mike has authored 6 computer books and over 1,200 articles. As a drummer, he maintains play-drums.com and has authored 3 drum books. If you have a project you wish to discuss with Mike, you can send him a private message through his PrestwoodBoards home page or call him 9AM to 4PM PST at 916-726-5675 x205.

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Post ID #6991 (Level 1.1)  Reply to 6830
Thread Started 7/15/2002 1:58:00 PM
View Counter=2
Location=Prestwood IT office in Citrus Heights, CA 
Joined=19 years ago   MB Posts=1410   KB Posts=1805   KB Comments=75   BLOG, Topics=4  
Moderator
Mike Prestwood
Prestwood IT
Prestwood IT office in Citrus Heights, CA
Here's another article on H-1Bs. This one is posted by ComputerWorld.


Old UBB Archived Link: [URL=http://www.computerworld.com/careertopics/careers/labor/story/0,10801,74627,00.html]Click Here[/URL]
to read the article.

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 Posted 17 years ago (Thread Starter)
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Post ID #7740 (Level 1.2)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 10/1/2002 9:43:00 AM
Location=Prestwood IT office in Citrus Heights, CA 
Joined=19 years ago   MB Posts=1410   KB Posts=1805   KB Comments=75   BLOG, Topics=4  
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Mike Prestwood
Prestwood IT
Prestwood IT office in Citrus Heights, CA
Check out Kim Berry on CNN:


Old UBB Archived Link: [URL=http://www.prestwood.com/aspsuite/kb/document_view.asp?qid=100283#Kim]Kim Berry on CNN's Lou Dobbs[/URL]

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 Posted 14 years ago (Thread Starter)
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Mike Prestwood is a drummer, an author, and creator of the PrestwoodBoards online community. He is the President & CEO of Prestwood IT Solutions. Prestwood IT provides Coding, Website, and Computer Tech services. Mike has authored 6 computer books and over 1,200 articles. As a drummer, he maintains play-drums.com and has authored 3 drum books. If you have a project you wish to discuss with Mike, you can send him a private message through his PrestwoodBoards home page or call him 9AM to 4PM PST at 916-726-5675 x205.

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Post ID #11231 (Level 1.3)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 9/16/2005 9:31:00 AM
Last Updated 8/30/2007 8:52:19 PM
Location=Prestwood IT office in Citrus Heights, CA 
Joined=19 years ago   MB Posts=1410   KB Posts=1805   KB Comments=75   BLOG, Topics=4  
rt
Castel, -- UK
To put that into perspective for those of us not in the US or conversant with your legislation, does that mean anyone intending to try to go there would be vetoed - or does it just apply to those from say, Mexico as you intimate?

How do you define "foreign worker"?
rt

Thats enough of that. Ed.

 Posted 17 years ago
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I do like my jazz and blues!


Post ID #7741 (Level 1.4)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 10/1/2002 2:04:00 PM
Location=Castel, -- UK 
Joined=19 years ago   MB Posts=687   KB Comments=1  
rt
Castel, -- UK
Now you've done it!! Roll Eyes
rt

Thats enough of that. Ed.

 Posted 17 years ago
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I do like my jazz and blues!


Post ID #8393 (Level 1.5)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/24/2002 8:14:00 AM
Location=Castel, -- UK 
Joined=19 years ago   MB Posts=687   KB Comments=1  
rt
Castel, -- UK
I warned you, you'd start something!!!!
Big Grin!

Thats enough of that. Ed.

 Posted 17 years ago
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I do like my jazz and blues!


Post ID #8440 (Level 1.6)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/26/2002 6:56:00 AM
Location=Castel, -- UK 
Joined=19 years ago   MB Posts=687   KB Comments=1  
harrymossman
Sacramento, CA USA
My My Two Cents - The exact number of unemployed doesn't matter. Thousands of American technology workers are unemployeed and desperate for work. Thousands of foreign workers have been brought in under this program.

Leaving the Constitution out of the discussion, I agree with Kim that this situation is not reasonable.

Oh, by the way, I frequently vote Libertarian, I have a lovely immigrant daughter-in-law, and I believe strongly that reasonable immigration is the life-blood of this country.

Soap Box Harry
 Posted 17 years ago
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Post ID #8450 (Level 1.7)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/26/2002 11:15:00 AM
Location=Sacramento, CA USA 
Joined=19 years ago   MB Posts=83  
Langley McKelvy
Harris County Texas, USA
Well this issue recently came up with a large consulting company (who shall remain nameless) and the huge county (4th largest in US) wherein I work. I was visiting the main IT area downtown and discovered it filled with foreign nationals, engaged in re-writing the county law-enforcement software (none had undergone security background checks, but that's another issue). The task, though daunting in size, was not terribly complex (some java coding to make a new front end to old data, and some new DB2 + Java for the new stuff) and could have easily been done by local talent. They might be getting paid less, but their company wasn't charging any less.
Mac

[i]"A king will have his way in his own hall, be it folly or wisdom."[/i] - Gandalf
 Posted 17 years ago
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Computer Crimes Investigator / Computer Forensics Specialist Paradox for DOS/Windows Programmer

Post ID #7760 (Level 1.8)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 10/3/2002 10:34:00 AM
Location=Harris County Texas, USA  
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=387  
Langley McKelvy
Harris County Texas, USA
That certainly flies in the face of the comment from the article Mike pointed out, where the CEO from India says "If you can do programming for $20, $25 an hour, why would you pay $150 an hour?".

Maybe, but the company is an established American Consulting firm (one of the largest). I think if someone were to suggest dropping their prices, at least half their board would go into cardiac arrest. Nope, you're right; someone is pocketing a lot of money - in this case at taxpayer expense.
Mac

[i]"A king will have his way in his own hall, be it folly or wisdom."[/i] - Gandalf
 Posted 17 years ago
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Post ID #7767 (Level 1.9)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 10/3/2002 12:39:00 PM
Location=Harris County Texas, USA  
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=387  
Scott Wehrly
Prestwood IT
 (Inactive)
Las Vegas, NV USA
"Foreign workers" would be defined as non-U.S. citizens, which, unfortunately, includes our brethren from Britain.



ATroxell's comment about Mexico is really more relevant to the anti-terrorism efforts, but not to the abuse of the H-1B program.



The real issue with H-1B and foreign workers is the incredible volume of low-pay (but skilled) workers being brought in from India - at a time when there is a tremendous number of American workers that can fill the same jobs. If the software development was just being funneled off-shore, that would be one thing. But these workers are being established in companies here on the excuse that "there aren't any available candidates here to fill the jobs".



Grab your pitchforks, it's getting deep...
 Posted 17 years ago
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Post ID #7756 (Level 1.10)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 10/2/2002 2:39:00 PM
Location=Las Vegas, NV USA 
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=442   KB Posts=19  
Scott Wehrly
Prestwood IT
 (Inactive)
Las Vegas, NV USA
Their company wasn't charging any less?



That certainly flies in the face of the comment from the article Mike pointed out, where the CEO from India says "If you can do programming for $20, $25 an hour, why would you pay $150 an hour?".



I personally have not met any other software developers who are making $150 an hour! $35 an hour, tops!



And you have to ask if the statement refers to consulting fees, or in-house staff. 23 years in corporate IT, and I have yet to see anyone other than a senior VP make over $100 an hour in a staff position!



Somebody's pocketing a boatload of moolah somewhere...
 Posted 17 years ago
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Post ID #7764 (Level 1.11)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 10/3/2002 11:52:00 AM
Location=Las Vegas, NV USA 
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=442   KB Posts=19  
Scott Wehrly
Prestwood IT
 (Inactive)
Las Vegas, NV USA
Kim has dropped the ball on tooting his own horn on this subject, so I'll do it for him.



Here's an article from October 7 mentioning Kim's efforts.

http://www.washtech.org/wt/news/industry/display.php?ID_Content=377
 Posted 17 years ago
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Post ID #8251 (Level 1.12)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/11/2002 11:35:00 AM
Location=Las Vegas, NV USA 
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=442   KB Posts=19  
Scott Wehrly
Prestwood IT
 (Inactive)
Las Vegas, NV USA
And here's an eWeek article on the ITAA's bias, that references the WasTech article...

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,631442,00.asp
 Posted 17 years ago
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Post ID #8252 (Level 1.13)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/11/2002 11:37:00 AM
Location=Las Vegas, NV USA 
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=442   KB Posts=19  
Scott Wehrly
Prestwood IT
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Las Vegas, NV USA
...plus, Kim is starting a web site for his report to Congress on the H-1B mess...

http://www.familyinjustice.com/h1b/
 Posted 17 years ago
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Post ID #8253 (Level 1.14)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/11/2002 11:39:00 AM
Location=Las Vegas, NV USA 
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=442   KB Posts=19  
Kim Berry
Prestwood IT
Citrus Heights, CA USA
Yesterday 6000 people caused a traffic jam trying to apply for 200 positions at eBay. The applicants were highly skilled - advanced degrees from top schools and several years experience:


Old UBB Archived Link: [URL=http://www.kcbs.com/pages/kcbs/news/news_story.nsp?story_id=34524734]Thousands fight for 200 eBay job openings[/URL]


Many Americans will remain unemployed, while dozens if not hundreds of nonimmigrant H-1B workers are secure in their jobs at eBay.

While Congress had no problem agreeing to approve foreigners taking jobs from Americans, this week they were unable to agree to extend unemployment benefits for these same Americans. Next month benefits expire for 300,000 unemployed Americans.

THE H-1B PROGRAM SHOULD BE SUSPENDED IMMEDIATELY! IT IS BEING USED TO DISPLACE QUALIFIED AMERICANS

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 Posted 17 years ago
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Kim Berry is an experienced coder currently specializing in VS.Net C# coding of WinForm and WebForm applications. Kim currently works part time for Prestwood IT Solutions and participates in this online community when time allows. Kim worked fulltime at Prestwood Software for four years and is still available for part time evenings and weekends work. He was one of the main Prestwood developers developing ASPSuite and has coded in many languages including C, Visual Basic, Delphi, and Visual Studio.Net.


Post ID #8369 (Level 1.15)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/21/2002 7:17:00 AM
Location=Citrus Heights, CA USA 
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=65   KB Posts=19   BLOG, Topics=4  
Kim Berry
Prestwood IT
Citrus Heights, CA USA
Hi Larry,

My toes are pretty tough (and thanks for the segue RT).

Just because Nike uses slave labor to fabricate their shoes in China doesn't mean the U.S. should import these slaves to the U.S. The U.S. could in theory isolate itself from the rest of the world and do just fine. Why not? We have more than our fair share of resources. (Sure, the SUV's would have to go.)

You advocate the opposite, open U.S. borders to India and China, allowing 1 billion people to come to California, driving the wages to poverty and the standard of living to Calcutta.

If you don't believe the U.S. should restrict immigration, I can only ask what you think would happen within 10 years? Fully 50% of India and China would want to move here - one billion people.

If you at least agree the U.S. should limit immigration to its own best interest, then the challenge is determining what that level should be.

From an environmental perspective we should be striving for ZPG. From an economic perspective, we should not import more workers than there are jobs. Currently we have imported 500,000 IT workers in the past few years, and have 500,000 highly skilled Americans who cannot find work.

The U.S. worker cannot "compete" with workers in India because their cost of living is much less than ours. And we shouldn't strive to model India, because the vast majority want OUT.

The U.S. Constitution assure that no law will deprive a citizen of life, liberty, or property. The Supreme Court holds that one's ability to work in one's profession are among these protections. The H-1B laws, allowing nonimmigrants to replace American workers appears unconstitutional.

I have prepared a detailed report and brief along these lines here:


Old UBB Archived Link: [URL=http://www.familyinjustice.com/h1b/]www.familyinjustice.com/h1b/[/URL]

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 Posted 17 years ago
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Kim Berry is an experienced coder currently specializing in VS.Net C# coding of WinForm and WebForm applications. Kim currently works part time for Prestwood IT Solutions and participates in this online community when time allows. Kim worked fulltime at Prestwood Software for four years and is still available for part time evenings and weekends work. He was one of the main Prestwood developers developing ASPSuite and has coded in many languages including C, Visual Basic, Delphi, and Visual Studio.Net.


Post ID #8416 (Level 1.16)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/25/2002 7:58:00 AM
Location=Citrus Heights, CA USA 
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=65   KB Posts=19   BLOG, Topics=4  
Scott Wehrly
Prestwood IT
 (Inactive)
Las Vegas, NV USA
Issue # 3


I would be willing to bet that anyone who is out of work but competent, who is willing to cut their prices in half, could find work within a week. Wouldn't you agree?

Well, we just happen to have a real-world example that flies in this assumption.

Last week, in the S.F. Bay Area, 6000 people (mostly unemployed) showed up at eBay's headquarters to apply for 200 job openings. Among those prospective job applicants was a software engineer with over 12 years of experience, with a master's degree, who was begging to take any job for half or less than what he was used to making. This came from an interview he did with local news right after he came out from applying. No word on whether he was one of the lucky ones, but he wasn't the only experienced engineer there making that offer.



And, where are those 500,000 out-of-work technology workers? 502,996 of them are reported at this site:

http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/economy/layoffs.asp?siteid=mktw I
 Posted 17 years ago
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Post ID #8445 (Level 1.17)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/26/2002 7:50:00 AM
Location=Las Vegas, NV USA 
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=442   KB Posts=19  
Scott Wehrly
Prestwood IT
 (Inactive)
Las Vegas, NV USA
I should add, that out-of-work technology worker with the master's degree said that he has been out of work and looking for a job for several months. I'd bet that he's looking out of state for work as well. I know I would if I were in his position.
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Post ID #8446 (Level 1.18)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/26/2002 7:53:00 AM
Location=Las Vegas, NV USA 
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=442   KB Posts=19  
Scott Wehrly
Prestwood IT
 (Inactive)
Las Vegas, NV USA
Issue #2


But even if a large number of people immigrated and caused wages to be driven down, remember that you will be able to buy the same things you buy today at much lower prices.


And finally, I don't think we software developers have much to fear. As a group we are much better educated, have a much better sense of economic laws and relationships than new immigrants.



Have you had an opportunity to work with software professionals from India? They have quite a masterful sense of economic laws, and they understand relationships in U.S. businesses as well or better than most of us! They are highly educated, in many cases more so than U.S. workers.



So, where is the buying power for those 500,000 out of work technology workers going to come from? How many of them are now going to be forced into selling off all of the assets they have accumuated since they began their careers (at pennies on the dollar), then take two minimum wage jobs just to keep their families a hair above the poverty line?



I don't argue against immigration. Living in L.A. after the Vietnam war, I saw thousands of Vietnamese refugees come to the region and purchase and run convenience stores, doughnut shops, etc., and provide great customer service. But, they purchased these businesses from sellers who no longer wanted to run those businesses. The seller received a value in the exchange. And the immigrant families now live very well. That's the American way.



But why should we allow the U.S. Government to subsidize the wholesale giveaway of American jobs to non-Americans, on the pretense that "there is a shortage of qualified workers".
Those 502,996 workers would all tell you "B.S.". I What are they receiving in return? "Don't let the door hit you in the a** on the way out". Worried
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Post ID #8447 (Level 1.19)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/26/2002 8:14:00 AM
Location=Las Vegas, NV USA 
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=442   KB Posts=19  
Kim Berry
Prestwood IT
Citrus Heights, CA USA
Larry,

Regarding the number of unemployed programmers, the State fails to keep precise numbers. If you read my "report to congress" you'll see the layoffs are significant:


Old UBB Archived Link: [URL=http://www.familyinjustice.com/h1b/]www.familyinjustice.com/h1b/[/URL]


"In California alone, in the 12-month period ending October 31, 2002, 49,587 programmers and engineers applied for unemployment benefits because they were unable to find work. This is more than double the number of truck drivers that filed in the same period."

As Scott said, 6000 people in one area turned out to apply for positions at one employer. Most were unemployed.

Further you are incorrect that Americans don't have a "right" to their jobs. People have been awarded substantial settlements for being wrongfully deprived of their employment.

Again, I spell out the Constitutional issues in the BRIEF at the above URL, so no point repeating them here.

There are many people on the prestwood forum who are unemployed. You can view their resumes. They have up to date skills. Not much use were there are 2 jobs and 400 applicants - and Congress is admitting 5000 foreign programmers each month.

Kim

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 Posted 17 years ago
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Kim Berry is an experienced coder currently specializing in VS.Net C# coding of WinForm and WebForm applications. Kim currently works part time for Prestwood IT Solutions and participates in this online community when time allows. Kim worked fulltime at Prestwood Software for four years and is still available for part time evenings and weekends work. He was one of the main Prestwood developers developing ASPSuite and has coded in many languages including C, Visual Basic, Delphi, and Visual Studio.Net.


Post ID #8451 (Level 1.20)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/26/2002 11:16:00 AM
Location=Citrus Heights, CA USA 
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=65   KB Posts=19   BLOG, Topics=4  
Scott Wehrly
Prestwood IT
 (Inactive)
Las Vegas, NV USA
Ah, but I was sitting next to Kim when he made the phone call where those statistics came from.



They're from the California E.D.D. - i.e. the people that you file unemployment with in California. No bias or slant there. Just facts.



And, yes, 49,587 programmers and engineers is a small percentage in a state where there are at least a million people in those jobs (there's a lot of aerospace, defense contractor, computer, etc. companies in CA.). But based on the tremendous number of layoff notices that happen each week, that number should be significantly larger once December 31 rolls around...
 Posted 17 years ago
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Post ID #8454 (Level 1.21)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/26/2002 2:37:00 PM
Location=Las Vegas, NV USA 
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=442   KB Posts=19  
Kim Berry
Prestwood IT
Citrus Heights, CA USA
Larry,

I tried to get the info you cite from EDD, but the State doesn't track it. I said, "You don't know how many programmers are working in CA and how many are laid off? "Nope."

The "statistic" it shows is that a significant number (50,000) programmers and electronic engineers lost their job against their will, and were unable to immediately find another - hardly a sign of an "IT shortage."

If you support the need for the H-1B program, can you name ONE EMPLOYER - ONE POSITION that the employer has been unable to fill with an American in spite of a diligent search?

On the contrary, I can cite job ads whose intended purpose is to exclude Americans so that an H-1B can get a green card and stay in the position. No matter how qualified the Americans are, the employer, 99.6% of the time (if I recall) will successfully claim that "none of the applicants were qualified" and INS will rubber-stamp a green-card.

Kim

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 Posted 17 years ago
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About Kim Berry

Kim Berry is an experienced coder currently specializing in VS.Net C# coding of WinForm and WebForm applications. Kim currently works part time for Prestwood IT Solutions and participates in this online community when time allows. Kim worked fulltime at Prestwood Software for four years and is still available for part time evenings and weekends work. He was one of the main Prestwood developers developing ASPSuite and has coded in many languages including C, Visual Basic, Delphi, and Visual Studio.Net.


Post ID #8455 (Level 1.22)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/26/2002 2:41:00 PM
Location=Citrus Heights, CA USA 
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=65   KB Posts=19   BLOG, Topics=4  
Kim Berry
Prestwood IT
Citrus Heights, CA USA
Sounds like you're proposing they start a "dot-com." Those are sure bets, aren't they? Geek Alert!

Seriously, if you have a marketable software idea, why not send to to me...on my private email?

Kim

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 Posted 17 years ago
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About Kim Berry

Kim Berry is an experienced coder currently specializing in VS.Net C# coding of WinForm and WebForm applications. Kim currently works part time for Prestwood IT Solutions and participates in this online community when time allows. Kim worked fulltime at Prestwood Software for four years and is still available for part time evenings and weekends work. He was one of the main Prestwood developers developing ASPSuite and has coded in many languages including C, Visual Basic, Delphi, and Visual Studio.Net.


Post ID #8458 (Level 1.23)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/26/2002 2:59:00 PM
Location=Citrus Heights, CA USA 
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=65   KB Posts=19   BLOG, Topics=4  
Kim Berry
Prestwood IT
Citrus Heights, CA USA
Hey Larry,

I think starting a thread for brainstorming software opportunities is a great idea.

I'll watch for it tomorrow.
Kim

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 Posted 17 years ago
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Kim Berry is an experienced coder currently specializing in VS.Net C# coding of WinForm and WebForm applications. Kim currently works part time for Prestwood IT Solutions and participates in this online community when time allows. Kim worked fulltime at Prestwood Software for four years and is still available for part time evenings and weekends work. He was one of the main Prestwood developers developing ASPSuite and has coded in many languages including C, Visual Basic, Delphi, and Visual Studio.Net.


Post ID #8460 (Level 1.24)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/26/2002 3:29:00 PM
Location=Citrus Heights, CA USA 
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=65   KB Posts=19   BLOG, Topics=4  
Kim Berry
Prestwood IT
Citrus Heights, CA USA
Thanks for the realrates link. I think the claim is off-point to the H-1B issue. The same point could be made of teachers, firemen, truck drivers, accountants, even attorneys. Let's flood these job markets, lay off qualified firemen, replacing them with $20/day workers from India/China. Why not? Are they afraid of free market? It would save my tax $$$. Why am i paying for police/fireman pensions when I have no pension myself?

Here are some recent H-1B articles for discussion:


Old UBB Archived Link: [URL=http://www.timesdispatch.com/frontpage/MGB9W00C69D.html]Work visa's success fuels resentment - Richmond VA[/URL]



Old UBB Archived Link: [URL=http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/comp/articleshow?artid=29803403]Jobless & American? Blame H-1B - IndiaTimes[/URL]

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 Posted 17 years ago
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Kim Berry is an experienced coder currently specializing in VS.Net C# coding of WinForm and WebForm applications. Kim currently works part time for Prestwood IT Solutions and participates in this online community when time allows. Kim worked fulltime at Prestwood Software for four years and is still available for part time evenings and weekends work. He was one of the main Prestwood developers developing ASPSuite and has coded in many languages including C, Visual Basic, Delphi, and Visual Studio.Net.


Post ID #8514 (Level 1.25)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 12/2/2002 7:49:00 AM
Location=Citrus Heights, CA USA 
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=65   KB Posts=19   BLOG, Topics=4  
Kim Berry
Prestwood IT
Citrus Heights, CA USA
A group of anti-H-1B activists have drafted a letter to DOL that is seeking signatures. you can add your name by emailing:

Name
statment of situation
city state zip
phone email

to kim@prestwood.com

the letter is temporarily available here:

Old UBB Archived Link: [URL=http://www.fireandrescuetraining.ca.gov/kimtest/chaoletter.html]DOL Letter Draft[/URL]


While DOL claims to be protecting U.S. workers, they are approving LCAs for H-1Bs paying as little as $28,000 per year. Many of these indian contract companies force the indians to sign contracts that if they quit, they owe $10,000 for their training, then they force them to work 14 hour days, 7 days per week.

Anyone who believes SLAVERY ended 150 years ago in American is mistaken. CEOs of tech companies, including Intel, HP, Cisco, Oracle, Sun, are the new plantation owners. (Carly reminds me a bit of Scarlett O'Hara)

thanks
Kim berry
Sacramento

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 Posted 16 years ago
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Kim Berry is an experienced coder currently specializing in VS.Net C# coding of WinForm and WebForm applications. Kim currently works part time for Prestwood IT Solutions and participates in this online community when time allows. Kim worked fulltime at Prestwood Software for four years and is still available for part time evenings and weekends work. He was one of the main Prestwood developers developing ASPSuite and has coded in many languages including C, Visual Basic, Delphi, and Visual Studio.Net.


Post ID #9468 (Level 1.26)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 4/24/2003 8:30:00 AM
Location=Citrus Heights, CA USA 
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=65   KB Posts=19   BLOG, Topics=4  
Larry Drews
Iowa
Hi, I am new to these message boards, so I hope that I don't step on anybody's toes.

I guess I am a "free market" fatalist. Whether we like it or not we live in a global economy. So if individuals from other countries can do the same work that we do, but for a lower price, then the work will inevitably go to the lower priced workers. It may be in the form of offshore development or imported H1B workers, but it doesn't make much difference in the long run.

So my take on it is: suck it up, tighten your belt, and start competing. Early in my career I heard the saying: If you get replaced by a black box, learn to fix black boxes! So I suggest that we all have to learn how to take advantage of and use these lower cost programmers in our work. And we have to position ourselves in areas that are less susceptable to such competition, such as management, business analysis, etc.

Just my $.02
 Posted 17 years ago
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Post ID #8384 (Level 1.27)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/23/2002 11:02:00 AM
Location=Iowa  
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=67   KB Comments=1  
Larry Drews
Iowa
Kim,

Oh boy, so many issues to discuss (Larry, settling in for a long winter's evening debate). I don't have time right now to do it justice, but I will be back this evening.
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Post ID #8426 (Level 1.28)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/25/2002 1:46:00 PM
Location=Iowa  
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=67   KB Comments=1  
Larry Drews
Iowa
Kim,

OK, here we go!


Just because Nike uses slave labor to fabricate their shoes in China doesn't mean the U.S. should import these slaves to the U.S. The U.S. could in theory isolate itself from the rest of the world and do just fine. Why not? We have more than our fair share of resources. (Sure, the SUV's would have to go.)

First, if Nike uses "slave" labor in China to fabricate shoes, it is because the Chinese culture and government permit it, if not encourage it. While I don't like the idea of actual slavery myself, if the Chinese people tolerate it, it is none of our business.

Second, I would not advocate "importing" that slave labor to the US, but I would not want to find myself denying a slave's chance to escape their bondage, would you? So if a slave can make it here, I say let him/her in.

Now I don't subscribe to the idea of "isolating" ourselves from the rest of the world. For one thing, it probably impossible. But neither do I feel that we have any responsibility to "right" the world according to our own provincial beliefs. What works for our society because of our history and cultural makeup, might very well devastate another society. So let's just engage in trade with other nations/cultures with as few political entanglements as possible.

And economically speaking, those Nike "slaves" produce shoes that cost less than we can produce them for. Any attempt to restrict their importation simply means that you prefer US consumers to have to pay more for their shoes than they otherwise would. That would simply transfer money from US consumers to US producers, a protectionist approach in my opinion.

Now to relate this to offshore software development and H1B workers. Any attempt to restrict their use simply transfers the buyers' potential savings into undeserved profit for US suppliers/workers. I can certainly understand this desire, after all I am a US software worker. But I don't like it at all when I am a US software buyer. As a consumer of software products, I want the best quality for the lowest price, and I don't really care where it is produced.

So tell me, should we penalize consumers to benefit workers, or penalize workers to benefit consumers? Or should we simply get out of the way and let the free market decide?
 Posted 17 years ago
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Post ID #8428 (Level 1.29)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/25/2002 4:30:00 PM
Location=Iowa  
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=67   KB Comments=1  
Larry Drews
Iowa
Kim,

2nd issue:

You advocate the opposite, open U.S. borders to India and China, allowing 1 billion people to come to California, driving the wages to poverty and the standard of living to Calcutta.

If you don't believe the U.S. should restrict immigration, I can only ask what you think would happen within 10 years? Fully 50% of India and China would want to move here - one billion people.


The US has a long history of immigration. And several studies I have read (unfortunately I can't provide references, so just take my word for argument's sake) have shown that a major source of economic growth in the US comes from those immigrants. They tend to be willing to work harder and longer than the rest of us. And the ones who immigrate tend to be the more educated, more ambitious.

The idea that 50% of the population of China or India would immigrate boggles my imagination. Hell, you can't even get the residents of our inner city ghettos to move from their neighborhoods. I know this from personal experience. So to think that large numbers of people would pick up and leave their friends and families, their culture, etc. seems to me to be a little farfetched.

But even if a large number of people immigrated and caused wages to be driven down, remember that you will be able to buy the same things you buy today at much lower prices. Probably even more things because of the increased productivity of our society caused by the infusion of new blood.

And finally, I don't think we software developers have much to fear. As a group we are much better educated, have a much better sense of economic laws and relationships than new immigrants. It is true that I probably couldn't compete for a job at McDonalds or 7-11, but then I am not looking for such jobs. Are you?
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Post ID #8429 (Level 1.30)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/25/2002 4:43:00 PM
Location=Iowa  
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=67   KB Comments=1  
Larry Drews
Iowa
Kim,

Issue #3:

From an environmental perspective we should be striving for ZPG. From an economic perspective, we should not import more workers than there are jobs. Currently we have imported 500,000 IT workers in the past few years, and have 500,000 highly skilled Americans who cannot find work.


Who says we should be striving for ZPG? Not me. The Malthusian concept of us running out of limited resources has not stood the test of time. When certain resources become scarce, we just find others. And unless we have found a way to toss all of our junk into space, everything we use stays right here. So there is no lessening of resources, in theory. They are just transformed into different forms.

And if the supply of jobs is limited, how the heck did we accomodate the increase in population for the last 200 years? In my opinion, there is more than enough work to last us forever. Granted that sometimes there are temporary imbalances where there is more organized work in one place than another and the workers are not in the place they need to be to do that work, but that imbalance sorts itself out soon enough. And there is mal-investment and the correction process is painful and dislocating, but again that is just a temporary situation, much like we find ourselves in today. Of course that doesn't help somebody who is out of work and can't pay their bills, but it is no basis for radically changing social policy either.

And by the way, I don't think we have 500,000 workers who can't find work; we have 500,000 workers who aren't willing to cut their prices to compete for work. I would be willing to bet that anyone who is out of work but competent, who is willing to cut their prices in half, could find work within a week. Wouldn't you agree?

For example, if I were to go to your employer and say, "I can do Kim's job for 1/2 of Kim's salary", what do you think your employer would say? How many employers do you think I would have to approach before I found one that would listen?
 Posted 17 years ago
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Post ID #8430 (Level 1.31)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/25/2002 4:58:00 PM
Location=Iowa  
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=67   KB Comments=1  
Larry Drews
Iowa
Kim,

Issue #4:

The U.S. Constitution assure that no law will deprive a citizen of life, liberty, or property. The Supreme Court holds that one's ability to work in one's profession are among these protections. The H-1B laws, allowing nonimmigrants to replace American workers appears unconstitutional.


Actually, I believe that the clause says: "no law will deprive a citizen of life, liberty, or property without just compensation" or something to that effect. Governments condemn property all of the time and take it from the owners. They just have to pay for it. Governments take life and liberty, also. Our prisons are full of such citizens, and we regularly execute some citizens.

I would challenge your assertion that "the ability to work in one's profession" is protected by the constitution, at least in the way that you are portraying it. If that were the case, then we could sue to eliminate competition at any time by asserting that the competition limits our ability to work in our profession. Not to mention employers' right to terminate employment at will which is a feature in most states. So I ask, How is importing H1B workers any different?

Finally, Kim, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to get up on my soapbox for a while. I look forward to your replies, a chance to go "mano a mano" in this kind of discussion/debate.
 Posted 17 years ago
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Post ID #8431 (Level 1.32)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/25/2002 5:10:00 PM
Location=Iowa  
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=67   KB Comments=1  
Larry Drews
Iowa
Scott,

And, where are those 500,000 out-of-work technology workers? 502,996 of them are reported at this site:

http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/economy/layoffs.asp?siteid=mktw

The link that you provided shows the the total layoffs from the companies in question, I believe. If you define "technology workers" as anyone employed by a technology firm, including the janitors, them the figures make sense. But to me, "technology workers" mean those individuals actually doing technology work, e.g., software engineers.

For the purposes of the H1B discussion as it affects our employment, we should restrict it even further to software workers. How many "software workers" are there in that 500,000? I know at the company where I work, we have had layoffs now of ~20%, ~60 people. Out of that 60, only one person from the IS department, a junior DB analyst was let go. And we are a company where the IS staff is ~30% of the company. I hear similar situations at the various companies that I am familiar with.

So, while there are indeed experienced software people out of work at the moment, and openings are difficult to find by traditional means, my take on the current situation is that unemployment among software workers is likely closer to 1%. Would you happen to have any actual statistics that isolate software workers as a class in the unemployment figures?

Now my personal experience may be unique, but in 40 years of software development, going through several recessions along the way, I have never been involuntarily unemployed. The longest time between jobs, even when I left voluntarily, has been 3 weeks.

Now maybe I am unusual because I have always felt that any job is temporary and I always keep my resume up-to-date, network like crazy, read marketing and sales training books to get ideas on how to find jobs/contracts/consulting assignments, etc. I feel that marketing myself is an essential part of my career management, so I don't relegate that to just the times when I don't have a job.

I would suggest to the software engineer who you described, that he start calling the IS manager of every company in the Sacramento area and making the same offer. He shouldn't wait for newspaper ads or recruiters to call him. Estimates that I have read indicate that 80% of all jobs are never advertised. So the engineer would probably have a better chance if he tried to find one of those unadvertised positions by offering the companies a "deal they can't refuse".

Just my $.02
 Posted 17 years ago
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Post ID #8448 (Level 1.33)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/26/2002 10:25:00 AM
Location=Iowa  
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=67   KB Comments=1  
Larry Drews
Iowa
Scott,

But why should we allow the U.S. Government to subsidize the wholesale giveaway of American jobs to non-Americans, on the pretense that "there is a shortage of qualified workers".
Those 502,996 workers would all tell you "B.S.". What are they receiving in return? "Don't let the door hit you in the a** on the way out".


My argument is that we don't really have a choice in the matter. The 502,996 workers do not have a vested interest in their jobs. They are not owed a job. They have a job or not because the employer thinks that the company will make a profit off of them. Otherwise there would not be any reason for the employer to hire them.

Now if the Indian programmers offer to do the same job for less, and assuming that they can do the job adequately, then the employer would be crazy not to use them. Every dollar the employer saves on salaries goes straight into the company profit.

Now if we say that the government should prohibit the importation of these workers, then the companies will simply go offshore. I read recently that Intel and some other major hightech company (whose name I don't remember at the moment) are investing millions of $ setting up software development centers in India. There we don't even get the benefit of the Indian workers spending money for living expenses.

So I suggest we better wake up and smell the coffee! The commodity programming work will go to the least costly place, and we ain't it. And trying to insitute protectionist policies may slow it down a little bit, but the end result is inevitable.

So I suggest that we have to find other ways to justify our higher wages. The first idea that comes to my mind is to establish a relationship with some offshore programmers that I can farm work out to and leverage their lower cost in my bids. Or move toward project management, business analysis, user support, etc., any of the activities that require someone onsite that is intimately familiar with US business and social customs. The Indians will have difficulty handling those activities from Bangladore and consequently will not be competition.

Just my $.02
 Posted 17 years ago
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Post ID #8449 (Level 1.34)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/26/2002 10:42:00 AM
Location=Iowa  
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=67   KB Comments=1  
Larry Drews
Iowa
Kim,

"In California alone, in the 12-month period ending October 31, 2002, 49,587 programmers and engineers applied for unemployment benefits because they were unable to find work. This is more than double the number of truck drivers that filed in the same period."


I just love these kind of statistics, don't you? Banging Head On Wall We don't know:

  • How many programmers and engineers total are in California
  • What were the numbers of programmers and engineers on unemployment each month (some leave, some new arrive)
  • What were the number of truck drivers in California during the same period
  • What are the relative percentages of each that were on unemployment each month

As quoted, the statistics offered are just flamebait, and slanted to support the author's position. Of course that is the norm for such statistics; if they didn't support the author's position they wouldn't be offered.
 Posted 17 years ago
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Post ID #8452 (Level 1.35)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/26/2002 2:16:00 PM
Location=Iowa  
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=67   KB Comments=1  
Larry Drews
Iowa
Kim,

Further you are incorrect that Americans don't have a "right" to their jobs. People have been awarded substantial settlements for being wrongfully deprived of their employment.

I consider this statement as misleading. People have been awarded substantial settlements for being wrongfully discharged. Wrongful discharge is usually based on age, religion, sexual preference, political preference, or disability. Discharge because the employer can get someone cheaper, more experienced, or more productive is not prohibited. And that is the issue here.

I believe California is an "employment at will" state. This means that an employer, absent some contractual agreement to the contrary, can fire an employee whenever they want to as long as they do not give as a reason one of the prohibited ones mentioned above. If the employer declines to give a reason, the employee essentially has no recourse unless he/she can prove that they were fired for one of the prohibited reasons.

But firing an employee to lower costs is not prohibited by law. The employer may acquire a negative reputation, be assailed by various and sundry labor groups, but such a firing is not unlawful as I understand such things.

But even if it was unlawful, the employer can simply setup a subsidiary company in India, send all of the work there, and then layoff the local employees because there is no work for them to do. Then the employer can import the Indian workers to California on the H1B program because they realized that they prefered the work to be done locally and there are no "qualified" workers available locally. Of course, "qualified" is in the eyes of the beholder, in this case the employer.

I think we waste our time and energies in trying to make employers do what we employees think is right. If the monetary advantage is against us, we will never win in the long run. In my opinion, we will do much better to figure out how to offer services to the employer that the employer perceives as more valuable than the services offered by H1B imports. Then there is no problem: the employer wants to buy from us and we want to sell to the employer.
 Posted 17 years ago
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Post ID #8453 (Level 1.36)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/26/2002 2:34:00 PM
Location=Iowa  
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=67   KB Comments=1  
Larry Drews
Iowa
Kim,

There are many people on the prestwood forum who are unemployed. You can view their resumes. They have up to date skills. Not much use were there are 2 jobs and 400 applicants - and Congress is admitting 5000 foreign programmers each month.

What a waste of time and talent! Why don't the 400 programmers get together, form a software company, and begin building and selling software products and services? They are not making anything now, so they can afford to start out with little, if any salary. If they are indeed competent, they should be able to generate enough profits very quickly to start paying some salaries. Bootstrapping like this is not easy, but it sure beats sitting on your butt waiting for the phone to ring.

Surely someone among the 400 has the idea for a product. C'mon, get started!

Approach all the companies in the Sacramento area. Find out what there major problems are. Figure out how software can solve their problems. Propose the solution, get the contract signed, and start working. You might have to do this 50, 100 times before you connect. What else are you doing with your time?

Just my $.02
 Posted 17 years ago
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Veteran software developer specializing in Delphi/Kylix development. Currently Manager of Applications Development for a biotech company in Iowa.

Post ID #8456 (Level 1.37)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/26/2002 2:44:00 PM
Location=Iowa  
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=67   KB Comments=1  
Larry Drews
Iowa
Kim,

If you support the need for the H-1B program, can you name ONE EMPLOYER - ONE POSITION that the employer has been unable to fill with an American in spite of a diligent search?

You misunderstand me! I do not support the H1B program. I just don't think it is a profitable use of time trying to fight it. We are highly unlikely to win the fight for very good economic reasons. But if you want to tilt at windmills, please be my guest.

Instead, I urge unemployed programmers and engineers to try to become more competitive, creative, agressive, etc., about finding work. The traditional commodity programming position is highly vulnerable to competition, so let's try something else, anything else! Don't try to make water flow uphill! It's not worth it. Figure out how to take advantage of the fact that water wants to go downhill: build a waterwheel or something.

I consider it a disservice to my fellow programmers and engineers to embroil them in a fight that I don't think they can win and which will use up creative energy that could be directly applied to their situation.

My $.03 (Inflation, you know)
 Posted 17 years ago
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About Larry Drews
Veteran software developer specializing in Delphi/Kylix development. Currently Manager of Applications Development for a biotech company in Iowa.

Post ID #8457 (Level 1.38)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/26/2002 2:56:00 PM
Location=Iowa  
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=67   KB Comments=1  
Larry Drews
Iowa
Kim,

Sounds like you're proposing they start a "dot-com." Those are sure bets, aren't they?

Seriously, if you have a marketable software idea, why not send to to me...on my private email?


Now you're talking! A "dot-com" is certainly one example of what I am talking about. How about "StarvingProgrammers.com"? We could carry signs at street corners: "We work for food". You think I'm kidding, don't you. But that is exactly how unemployed programmers could become agressive. It would certainly catch the eye of a business owner, right? So you work the first day for food, then the rate goes up to something more reasonable. But it would get you in the door!

I do have some ideas for products and services. But let's start another message thread where anyone who has an idea that they are willing to share can post it. Maybe some of the unemployed people can take one of the ideas and run with it. We can network with each other to help the unemployed people start working again. I can get behind that!

What do you think?
 Posted 17 years ago
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Veteran software developer specializing in Delphi/Kylix development. Currently Manager of Applications Development for a biotech company in Iowa.

Post ID #8459 (Level 1.39)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/26/2002 3:16:00 PM
Location=Iowa  
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=67   KB Comments=1  
Larry Drews
Iowa
I ran across this statement by Janet Ruhl, a noted software consultant/author and owner of the
Old UBB Archived Link: [URL=http://www.realrates.com]RealRates[/URL]
web site:

And for those of us who like to code, well, we better either code up stuff we can sell to a customer base or figure out how to live on 3rd world wages, because the commodity stuff is moving out, and all the whining in the world won't stop it.

 Posted 17 years ago
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Veteran software developer specializing in Delphi/Kylix development. Currently Manager of Applications Development for a biotech company in Iowa.

Post ID #8506 (Level 1.40)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 11/30/2002 8:41:00 AM
Location=Iowa  
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=67   KB Comments=1  
Larry Drews
Iowa
Kim,


Thanks for the realrates link. I think the claim is off-point to the H-1B issue. The same point could be made of teachers, firemen, truck drivers, accountants, even attorneys. Let's flood these job markets, lay off qualified firemen, replacing them with $20/day workers from India/China. Why not? Are they afraid of free market? It would save my tax $$$. Why am i paying for police/fireman pensions when I have no pension myself?

If employers could figure out how to do it, they would. Why should they pay $150/day if they could get the same work done for $20/day. Would you pay $150/day for a repairman at your house if you could get the same work done for $20/day?

Intellectual property workers where the work is not bound up inextricably with location are highly vulnerable.

And, as a taxpayer, I would be delighted to see my taxes lowered. If you want to see a real revolution in using offshore workers, just show us taxpayers how to significantly reduce our taxes by using those offshore workers. Laws will get changed real quick!

Again, I do not argue the desirability, morality, or ethicalness of using offshore/H1B workers. I only assert that when there is such a cost differential, the work will flow to the lower cost provider regardless of laws, regulations, etc. If an employer can save $100K on a software project, it is worth going through a lot of hassle to do so. So they will.
 Posted 17 years ago
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Veteran software developer specializing in Delphi/Kylix development. Currently Manager of Applications Development for a biotech company in Iowa.

Post ID #8516 (Level 1.41)  Reply to 6830
Reply Posted 12/2/2002 8:40:00 AM
Location=Iowa  
Joined=17 years ago   MB Posts=67   KB Comments=1  

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